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  1. #11
    Jimmy CrassMoFuggah's Avatar
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    Thank you for taking the time to write up this post

    It seems to me that in all of the fantasies the women submit. In all of the fantasies she must test that she can trust a man. Can it therefore not be simplified to describing the differences in what turns a woman on?

    1) aroused by the emotional rush of the giving over her self-transformation to a man
    2) aroused by transgression and risk
    3) aroused by … what, exactly ?

    ..and it seems to me that all of these involve the woman being effectively child-like? She is on a roller coaster. She doesnt care how it works or where it came from. She doesnt even have a sense that you are creating that roller coaster. But she wants it to exist and for you to ride it with her, and like a child she will say “wheeee!” and “more, more more!”.

    -------
    re: emotional trust. in this moment I am reminded of this piece of gold by illuminatus from a while back:

    http://www.personalpowermeditation.c...er-management/
    -------

    the post is insightful. Until now I indiscriminantly have (at least internally) had major alarm bells go off when a woman asks me to buy her something. So the episode in the sex store when she suggested / asked you to buy the butt plug – that would have likely moved me break rapport. But what you say is important – that for her the thing is transformation, that she is submitting her identity to me. This is not the same as her asking for gifts in a provider / hunter sort of way. I think retrospectively I flamed out of many such scenarios because I misread them. So let me ask you – how does one properly read that she is PPP and not provider hunting, especially given that, like you said, it can quickly devolve into provider hunting?

    The PPP needs to trust that she can submit her identity. The OCP needs to trust that she can submit her spontaneous emotions. The pure submission bypasses ASD.

    “passion woman can misinterpret conscientious foreplay as indecision”

    yes!!! btw – it sounds like the OCP woman needs a lover that is the “the rake” archetype from “The Art of Seduction” (Robert Greene)

    ..I have to let this all marinade a bit..

  2. #12
    Forum Czar Tubarao's Avatar
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    Good stuff. Moved to HoF per Silvertree's suggestion.

  3. #13
    Member The Thin Man's Avatar
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    This post has been ranked 10.00 out of 10 with 1 votes.

    Quote Originally Posted by SteelyDan View Post
    Well, it couldn't all just boil down to masculine energy. First of all, that wouldn't explain the allure of men with undeniably feminine energy (not just celebs like Prince and Nick Jonas but also gay men).
    This is one of those interesting things...Androgyny can work for you.

    However I think you are conflating two male archetypes... Although they both trade on androgyny. One of them is perhaps the most extremely sexually attractive, to many women, of all of the archetypes. Performers like Prince, Mick Jagger, David Bowie, Alice Cooper etc... are the archetype of the medicine man. He is a magical creature that is outside of the traditional gender duality a thin androgynous singer story teller dancer... A wearer of masks and costumes... Woman love the medicine man the most... The medicine man archetype is also behind the strange sexual draw of some kinds of cult leaders... Think about how androgynous Warren Jeffs is...

    The other Archetype is the Man Child... Think Sean Cassidy, Nick Jonas, Justin Timberlake, or the early Beetles... This is the archetype of the boy bands. They are not magic they are approachable... and they are most attractive to virginal women. Their androgyny makes them less scary to pre-sexual teens who can get into a strange group frenzy over them, a kind of mob attraction you never see in mature women.
    Last edited by The Thin Man; 02-10-2015 at 09:11 PM.

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tubarao View Post
    Good stuff. Moved to HoF per Silvertree's suggestion.
    Hey... Thanks Guys. I am glad you like it...

  5. #15
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    I definitely agree about teenage girls preferring the following:
    * clear skin/small pores
    * pretty face
    * nice hair
    * short to average height

    I tend to use the word "pretty boy" (a physical trait) for what you are calling "man child", and I use "man child" for guys like Dane Cook, Ryan Reynolds, Gene Simmons....more of a personality trait of just being a grown man with a Peter Pan complex. I find Justin Timberlake to be an old soul if anything.

    Agree about those rock stars along with Jim Morrison having a medicine man/shaman role, but I think that is more to do with them being rock stars than being androgynous/feminine.

    Anyway, everything gets messed up when you start talking about celebrities (guilty as charged, I know). The particular IRL guy I am thinking of was definitely a PUA of some type -- don't know if he was part of the community -- somewhat of a pretty boy...soft features but not overly so. But his personality was what really struck me as feminine. He had eyes that looked like he was so vulnerable -- like on the edge of crying at any given moment. A soft, delicate voice. He absolutely killed it with women numbers-wise, and most of them were older. He was a brilliant strategist really, because his conquests would defend his promiscuity to the critics -- almost in a mother-child sort of way. Really fascinating to watch. Definitely not alpha by any stretch of the imagination though. There was nothing masculine about this guy.

    When I was working in Europe, there was a guy with a similar vibe who also dipped his paintbrush in quite a few paint cans by playing the vulnerable card. He was married back home, had a piece in the city, and I know of at least two other hot women he fucked while I was there (he had a longer term assignment). The dude played rugby and always got fucked up with bruises and broken bones, but it only made the women tend to him more. Least masculine guy in the group by far, somehow he was always the victim, but he also killed it with the women.

  6. #16
    Member Uncle Walker's Avatar
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    One of the things I really like about these archetypes is that it gives the man a destination. If sex is the goal then he can become needy to it. If a woman feels sex as the prize she can feel used and resistant. However, when seduction is the goal it loses that negativity. Sex is merely a byproduct.

    The fact that this seduction is rather vague in its definition can make it more durable as well. If sex is the goal then dick in vagina is the end but at what point is a woman fully seduced? After ten years a man can demand compliance or release her secret passion and out flows all those same emotions again. NRE does not have to be New.

    I disagree mildly with the idea that PPP doesn’t want to chase. I think she is the one who responds best to it. If she is giving so much then you must be that man she has always dreamed of. Kind of a reverse rationalization. If she is not transforming then you must not be that guy, so she has to put effort into it.

    Good stuff.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimmyChonga View Post
    It seems to me that in all of the fantasies the women submit. In all of the fantasies she must test that she can trust a man. Can it therefore not be simplified to describing the differences in what turns a woman on?

    1) aroused by the emotional rush of the giving over her self-transformation to a man
    2) aroused by transgression and risk
    3) aroused by … what, exactly ?

    ..and it seems to me that all of these involve the woman being effectively child-like? She is on a roller coaster. She doesnt care how it works or where it came from. She doesn't even have a sense that you are creating that roller coaster. But she wants it to exist and for you to ride it with her, and like a child she will say “wheeee!” and “more, more more!”.
    Thanks for distilling my thoughts... Maybe you are right it is a simple thing, just with many layers.

    1) A princess is aroused by joining your world and having her inner value and hidden beauty validated by it. This is why women want a man with, "something going on in his life" she wants a world to join... A princess wants to be transformed through her romantic involvement with you. This is why dress up and makeovers, are so sexy to a princess. Princess test for trustworthiness but need more then that... They need to feel Safety and Comfort because of the extreme vulnerability... They are going to need pampering and polishing to feel safe and valued. ij has a point you can be more open directly complimenting the beauty of a princess because pre-transformation she may not believe in it her self... Many objectively very good looking woman are very uncertain of their beauty or may even find themselves unattractive, a PPP seduction reveals her beauty, to her, by providing style or structure. Post transformation she will want recognition for what she has become.

    2) Passion women are aroused by emotional heat... That is why ij in his usual insightful way points out that they like to play cat and mouse... sometimes in the role of the cat and sometimes the mouse. Because, transgression, risk, and anxiety and then cathartic release are part of her archetype, passion woman need a rock solid Trust. Fucking a passion girl to her emotional mind is like you taking her tandem skydiving. Awesome, exciting, frightening, cathartic... and she needs to utterly trust the person she is getting strapped to... or she just wont jump. Although once she does as you said "Weeeeee"

    3) Many women get all up in their head around sex...They get anxious which takes them out of the moment and away from their bodies. Physiologically sexual arousal is close to anxiety... For a Passion woman anxiety provokes arousal... For a Submissive arousal provokes anxiety. I believe that this anxiety effect is the source of LMR and to some extent ASD. Rather then just listening to her throbbing clit... a turned on Submissive may start worrying... They worry about the weirdest shit too... like if her bra is not matching her panties, weather she shaved some minute hairs down there, that there is a miniature bit of cellulite in the inside of her right thigh... "Wait did I remember to feed the cat?" A great place to get the sense of what this inner dialog sounds like is in the Novel The Diary of Bridget Jones (I know I keep prescribing chick-lit... So sue me)

    Submissive are turned on by being liberated from all that shit because you just take over and tell them what to do. To seduce a submissive you need to demonstrate Calm, Competence, and Control. she needs to be comfortable with giving a way all control and just letting go. All of the paraphernalia of bondage and S&M sex are really just utensils for helping a woman let go and not be responsible for the sex acts... Or for pulling a wandering mind back to the body with a sharp sensation.

    The post is insightful. Until now I indiscriminately have (at least internally) had major alarm bells go off when a woman asks me to buy her something. So the episode in the sex store when she suggested / asked you to buy the butt plug – that would have likely moved me break rapport. But what you say is important – that for her the thing is transformation, that she is submitting her identity to me. This is not the same as her asking for gifts in a provider / hunter sort of way. I think retrospectively I flamed out of many such scenarios because I misread them. So let me ask you – how does one properly read that she is PPP and not provider hunting, especially given that, like you said, it can quickly devolve into provider hunting
    You are not an ATM don't pay a woman's rent... or phone bill or whatever... Unless she is your daughter, or a 100% live in house frau style domestic lover. If she seems to be trying to figure out how much money you have, sizing up your net worth, or making plans out loud about expensive things she wants you to do for or with her, the she could not otherwise afford... NEXT! As the man you are the host of the penis party be a good host, but never ever spend more than you can afford on a woman... You will end up broke and alone... If something is too much for your wallet say so... If she is even a tiny bit miffed about it NEXT! Resist blind obligatory gifts... They never like them and you just get betaized.

    You can do a princess seduction even if you are pretty broke, by providing safety and comfort through physical strength, or mechanical competence. But if you are financially secure you can demonstrate safety and comfort by telling her not to worry her pretty little head about the bill... Why not. I enjoy buying Nora sex toys and lingerie... In part because in arouses me to shop for them with her... but it should be noted that when I am in the country house she asks me to pick out her panties in the morning, this is a princess fantasy turn on at no cost at all.
    Last edited by The Thin Man; 02-11-2015 at 07:16 PM.

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uncle Walker View Post
    I disagree mildly with the idea that PPP doesn’t want to chase. I think she is the one who responds best to it. If she is giving so much then you must be that man she has always dreamed of. Kind of a reverse rationalization. If she is not transforming then you must not be that guy, so she has to put effort into it.
    This is a very good point... PPPs love to chase... I try to cut them off as best I can... This is the relationship issue with PPP women. If she perceives you as prince charming and thinks you are the man of her dreams... That is not such a good thing... It is a slippery slope from lover to lifestyle... There is noting wrong with being a woman's transformational lover... and in this situation some chasing is inevitable, but you need to try keep her from loosing her self in the chase,"this is everything I dreamed of" and you become her new lifestyle, "I love you and I am only trying to be helpful."

    This can chip away at your independence, and your mystery... The kind and cherishing, but still independent, spontaneous and exciting masculine frame that attracted her in the first place can crack. Leading to entitlement," I don't know who I am when you are not around so I deserve/need more and more of you" The road to AFC hell...

  9. #19
    Formerly Newman301 Irish Asshole's Avatar
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    Excellent thread Thin Man...and I really like your views on WHY you game (fulfill their fantasies rather than just get your dick wet).

    Quote Originally Posted by SteelyDan View Post
    Interesting that you think of the pool boy as alpha. I always considered the pool boy fantasy to be unique in that the pool boy has no power or status and does not lead the interaction.

    Don Draper is about as alpha as it gets but his wife still fantasizes about the nervous shy vacuum salesman. This can hardly be interpreted as choosing alpha over beta. Quite the opposite.
    In response to this...Read this article here. Maybe this is your answer.
    www.musicianlifestyle.com - Quit your job. Do cool shit instead!

  10. #20
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    This post has been ranked 10.00 out of 10 with 1 votes.

    IA,

    Like a lot of commentary on alpha/beta, I agree with the principles presented -- I just don't agree with the underlying theory. The section on what not to do reminds me of a lot of politicians, CEOs, athletes, salesmen. So yeah, of course it's better to be a true, authentic, genuine person who is honest and reliable and all that jazz, but it's plain to see from abundant evidence that going the other way will get you money, power and women, and almost everyone will love and respect you. That's why so many people do it. I don't think those people are particularly happy, but that's kind of beside the point, right?

    The point here is who gets laid? Who do women gravitate towards? The answer is more complex than alpha-beta. We as a species have evolved light years beyond that sexual selection model.

    "But Steely Dan, why is this whole alpha/dominant/entitled male thing so prevalent on SedFast?"

    Theories like this are as old as time because humans (including you, me and everyone else) do not reason chronologically.

    "What did I do different this time that got me laid? Well, I feel different on the inside. I feel confident and self-assured, and I finally understand what it means to be alpha! That is what changed. That is what's different this time."

    Yeah, but you didn't feel that way before you got laid. Your brain just erased those insecure negative feelings you were feeling before and replaced them with this newfound sense of awesomeness. It's not the cause, it's the effect.

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