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  1. #61
    Member Khali's Avatar
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    This post has been ranked 8.00 out of 10 with 1 votes.

    Quote Originally Posted by openwife View Post
    My jealousy has been a bit better. It takes an enormous effort on my part to not lose at times. If I don't think about it, it's fine. If I allow my thoughts to wander in direction of what my husband wants, what it feels like to him with another woman, what are they doing, etc I start feeling pain, anger, jealousy etc. I try so hard, but am able to only flex my willpower muscle to a certain extent... maybe I need counseling?? I don't know.
    You actually have 2 problems which are actually easy to fix. It takes time but it's fixable


    • Jealousy/ Possessiveness : This has to do with your social conditioning and upbringing. Growing up, society has always taught us that your boyfriend or lover is YOURS, meaning that you own him and no one else can have his/her love. This alone is the key thing you'll need to change. Your husband is NOT yours. He is a human being free to pick any life choice he wants/ free to do whatever he wants / free to be with whomever whenever he wants... and the time spent together is only by choice.

      Once you've accepted that you own no-one and that you're not entitled to anything from them, you no longer wait/ expect things from them and subsequently you can't no longer be jealous or possessive. It's a bit ironic... the more you let go, the less jealous/possessive you become and the happier you'll be
    • Activities/boredom / feeling left behind : You have more time on your hands. Use it and do more of the things that make you happy.. including anything sex related

  2. #62



    There are two aspects that usually get intermixed which causes most of the problems in "opening up" relationships. One is jealousy as a power game in which your partner spending time with others is a threat to your power over him. The other is the very real fear of encountering the situation in which your partner will simply be unable to organize his life in a way that he can satisfy your need and the need of his other "friends" in a good way. When I look at the few of my friends who tried open relationships or my own past, people usually fall off the golden balance on both sides: either they get too clingy or they tell themselves they aren't allowed to fear they won't represent such an important role in the life of your partner anymore that they'll spend enough time together to feel satisfied. So far me and my gf have resolved this by making sure we both know we're nr. 1 in priority to each other, meaning that if she realizes she needs more of me (or I do the other way round) it's a rational decision we took before any problems were even on the horizon that we'll first make sure to reconsider the situation between us and what it needs in terms of changes BEFORE making sure any of our other "friends" are satisfied as well. If you put this together with work issues and meeting friends and stuff, you might come to the conclusion that to have several lasting and satisfying relationships with women at the same time might be hard to construct long-term, which is the issue I'm dealing with at the moment.

    Please do yourself a favor and not forego the signals your body and mind give you about insecurities. Don't pre-design possible solutions and force your parter to stick to them, but find out the criteria for any to-be-found solution and then ask him to develop something fitting for you both together. If your partner is anything like my gf is, that should work well for you.

    Jester
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  3. #63



    Thank you, Khali. I have heard of these before, and I am working on it.
    Boredom is a non-issue - I have too many interests to be bored.... I never am bored. There is so much to do/be/learn etc. I just enjoy my husband's company for as many activities as possible, even if we are just in our office together, working on our computers.
    Jealousy - yes. It's a work in progress. I am failing so far. Well, failing to achieve the results I want. I understand everything you said. I have attempted to at least get myself to the point of Neutrality - where I do not feel anything. That seems impossible when confronted, as I described below in post to Jester.

  4. #64



    Jester,
    You are right. I am trying to do this. Here is my issue, however: I become overly irrational and emotional when confronted with the notion of a potential "date" he is planning to go on. And at that moment all my resolve to respond calmly and rationally dissipates. No matter what we spoke of before, no matter how much love and appreciation and affection he shows me, despite all his (I think, what should have been potentially effective, retrospectively) attempts to assure me I am his #1, I lose sight of all that. I do desire his complete attention, I hate sharing his time, even though I understand I do not own him, and he doesn't own me. After all the research I have done, I have come to the conclusion that there is a neurological pattern my brain has created in response to the given situation. Since my initial introduction to the whole idea of OM was so traumatic (although he did his best to be honest, yet gentle and loving), it was such a shock to my system that is focused solely on my husband, to the point of throwing up multiple times that evening, after hearing his proposal, I wonder if I have some slight form of PTSD? Is that possible?? I have been attempting to self-treat it by analyzing my own thought process, by recognizing my own fears and insecurities. I am better, but as I said, I have a long way to go. I am wondering if this is something I am able to fix myself...Thoughts??

  5. #65


    This post has been ranked 10.00 out of 10 with 2 votes.

    Quote Originally Posted by openwife View Post
    Jester,
    You are right. I am trying to do this. Here is my issue, however: I become overly irrational and emotional when confronted with the notion of a potential "date" he is planning to go on. And at that moment all my resolve to respond calmly and rationally dissipates. No matter what we spoke of before, no matter how much love and appreciation and affection he shows me, despite all his (I think, what should have been potentially effective, retrospectively) attempts to assure me I am his #1, I lose sight of all that. I do desire his complete attention, I hate sharing his time, even though I understand I do not own him, and he doesn't own me. After all the research I have done, I have come to the conclusion that there is a neurological pattern my brain has created in response to the given situation. Since my initial introduction to the whole idea of OM was so traumatic (although he did his best to be honest, yet gentle and loving), it was such a shock to my system that is focused solely on my husband, to the point of throwing up multiple times that evening, after hearing his proposal, I wonder if I have some slight form of PTSD? Is that possible?? I have been attempting to self-treat it by analyzing my own thought process, by recognizing my own fears and insecurities. I am better, but as I said, I have a long way to go. I am wondering if this is something I am able to fix myself...Thoughts??
    I am a man and according to this forum I'm supposed to be much more rational than the average woman, but judging from experience rationality and irrationality seem to be much more like two different aspects of one's personality, like conscious and sub-conscious. Throughout their lives, people get hurt, be it by assaults or just by other people being uncalibrated, because they were caught in a weak spot or situation or for whatever reason. There seem to be three main reasons to deal with the hurt: denial, fight or acceptance. Denial would mean that you're trying to "not see" what has happened, and try to not get yourself into situations in which you are reminded of it. In your specific situation that would be you not wanting to hear about it, not wanting to be alone with your thoughts and rather trying to have other things to do all the time so you don't have to think about it. The second way to deal with it, fighting, is trying to force someone to change what has happened or what he's planning to happen. In your situation that would be to try to manipulate your husband to stop seeing other women, either by openly telling him to stop it or (much more common) by secretly plotting to make it impossible for him, sabotaging him and stuff. The third option (and granted, the hardest one), would be acceptance. It is to accept someone else (or yourself) has turned out to be surprisingly different than you expected, and allow yourself to feel through all the hurt that comes with it. You could say you have been dis-illusioned by the experience, and acceptance means letting go of the illusions you had about someone and discovering deeper layers of that someone.

    A few years ago I was madly in love with one of my ex-gf, and I figured because I loved her so much I wouldn't want to imprison her by telling her to not interact with other men (even sexually). After about 1,5 years I had to painfully find out how she had perceived that as me not loving, not needing her fully, and how she as a freedom-person had very much needed me to need her, to tell her I wanted her to stay by my side, because her whole life was a drifting one with nowhere she was really drawn to. These days she's having a relationship with some Indian guy she met in India and doesn't look too happy (he's probably too much of a needy guy now). It took me months to come to terms with what had happened, to fully understand and accept it, but now that I think I understand what had truly happened, I can accept it as a learning experience I had to undergo, as much as it had hurt me. Truth be told, I'm very thankful she hurt me that bad (not intentionally), because I probably needed all the hurt to convince me some of my perceptions about the world needed to change to make sense of all that had happened.

    If you become overly irrational, so be it. Don't fight it too hard. You might be approaching some inner part of you that is the core problem causing all this emotional turmoil. See it as the path you'll have to undergo to reach a healing site in yourself. Also don't hide it from your partner. I'm not saying freak out and scream at him, just admit you're hurting but that it's alright and it's not intentional to keep him from anything, it's just a fact you're hurting and you're feeling brave enough to discover the core. My gf is a student in therapy and we discuss a lot/I read many of her books. She told me that what sometimes happens in traumatic situations is that one dissociates experiences and kind of "splits" them from his own sense of self to survive, especially when something happens to you when you're very young yet. Most really bad issues one discovers about himself stem from those dissociated parts of one's personality, and they are really hard to "rationally" re-integrate simply because they often were formed in a time your rationality didn't even exist yet.

    There is quite a chance that the behaviour of your partner triggers some core-level traumatic experience within you that has nothing to do with his actual behaviour. The only way to find out is to allow yourself to feel what is bubbling up over time, and if it truly feels scary, it is a helpful precaution to get yourself some help to guide you through. It can work with really good friends or even your partner, but if you're confronting very deep core-issues that have formed at a very young age, you might not be able to fully control yourself, which imposes a chance to hurt someone that only wants to help you. Which is why for really deep stuff therapists and psychologists are there for you: they are trained to not take whatever you yell at them personally, and even if they do it's not that much of a problem because they aren't your friends and family.

    What seems an interesting hint is that you're writing your whole system is focused solely on your husband. Because if it truly is, losing him would obviously be a major shock to you. One could ask himself why you developed this pattern of focusing on one single person. I for example have somehow developed a pattern of not trusting anyone except myself to help me deal with difficult situations, and I'm pretty sure it has developed because I sensed my whole family being uncapable to deal with their own problems when I was a very young child so I took the adult role at like 4 years just to make my family survive (enabling me to survive as well). From that time (I suppose) stems my inability to trust anyone (especially not superiors) with difficult situations if they haven't proven they can be trusted first. It's stupid, sometimes it's even completely irrational, but in certain situations it still happens. Just to give an examples of how this works

    Jester

    P.S.: I'm no trained therapist, please keep that in mind. All I can share is personal experience and what I've picked up over the years in literature and experiences of others.
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  6. #66



    Jester,
    I want to thank you for taking time to write all this out, I appreciate it very much. I will be pondering it. There is no one else I can really talk to about these issues. The only friend that knows about all this hates my husband for it. She is no use at all. I need support, I realized that very recently. I cannot make it by myself any more. Reading your thoughtful answer brought tears to my eyes, because I feel you care. Thank you.

  7. #67



    Quote Originally Posted by openwife View Post
    Jester,
    I want to thank you for taking time to write all this out, I appreciate it very much. I will be pondering it. There is no one else I can really talk to about these issues. The only friend that knows about all this hates my husband for it. She is no use at all. I need support, I realized that very recently. I cannot make it by myself any more. Reading your thoughtful answer brought tears to my eyes, because I feel you care. Thank you.
    It is a very common thing, but in my opinion also a very stupid thing to hate someone for who he is. Your husband being open to you about his desires for other women is (in my experience) a huge sign of trust and love on his part. Most men would just act on those desires anyway but secretly, lying to you and stuff. I have quite a few friends who are very much like your friend, and what they are trying to do is closing your mind so you'll only see the possibilities they themselves see. Truth is, there are endless possibilities to live your life and endless possibilities to handle relationships, but people are usually only used to think of a few categories and hate other people for showing them there might be different ways as well. The main reason seems to be that they don't want to question their own relationships (-> denial strategy). Your friend has chosen the second way to deal with a situation that's uncomfortable to her: forcing someone back to known ways "that work". Forcing people back into a few accepted ways will usually lead to at least some of the affected people having to supress part of who they are so that they can fit well enough for the systems to function. You might be able to force your husband back to repressing his desires somehow, but somewhere deep down he'll suffer for it, the worst hurt of all being the experience that even around someone he loves and trusts he cannot be his true self. The one thing every human being seems to seek in his life is to find someone to share unconditional love with. It's probably why the idea of spirituality/god and so on is a very strong one (I'm not claiming I know if god exists or not, just that this universal need of humans for unconditional love corresponds well with a loving god).

    Which is why I'm trying to promote truly looking at yourself and other people involved, the needs all these people have, and how to build a system of relationship that works to fulfill those needs as well as possible. I base my relationships of any kind on the needs of the people involved. Sometimes it's a freaking nightmare to calibrate these things because people are so used to thinking only in a few ways that it feels like work at times, but so far it's been very much worth it.

    At a very deep core many obstacles to not think in common relationship ways and become more creative is the question of "why am I loveable?". Am I loveable because I offer exclusivity? Is it because I offer the freedom to sleep around? Is it because I offer money/provider stuff? Becoming creative with relationships will sooner or later question all the answers you thought were real. For you the aspect of exclusivity might have been important, which is why your husband sleeping around might frighten you more than it would frighten me. If you follow through with that road, you might come to a place where you'll find no reason anymore why anyone should love you. It's a very lonely place to reach. But once you find that in this sweet spot there might be people who love you without you having to offer any reason, you might find a truth that can have enormous consequences for you: unconditional love does exist between people. Perhaps what your husband is asking you to do is to find out together if what you're sharing is conditional or not.

    Mind that there is a big difference between acceptance and tolerance there. Acceptance means accepting your partner with all his needs and desires fully as they are, but it does not mean you'll have to tolerate him acting out on all those needs without watching out for the needs of others. It's like with little children: their needs might be very real and important to them and you might understand them, but in some situations it's simply not appropiate for them to act them out right now. So as a parent or teacher you'll probably want to guide them so that they can express their needs without interfering with the needs of others. Like, "alright you can run around a little if you feel like it, but please do it outside of this music class so the others can sing on undisturbed". The same is true for your husbands needs: try to accept they are there and are part of his personality, but also don't forget to guide him so he can follow through with them without hurting you too much in the process. See your other thread for some practical advice on what I mean with that

    I'm at my girlfriend's place at the moment (she's at work) and I'm dealing with very interesting questions, such as: on what is our relationship based anyway? Because I seriously don't know anymore. She has another guy she regularily sleeps with, I got myself another woman I really like to spend time with as well, we see each other less than we seen our part-time-lovers (since we live quite far from each other), and still she's somehow nr. 1 for me. Perhaps because she simply accepts whatever bubbles up inside of me. I seriously don't know, and sometimes I struggle with the fact that rationally it doesn't make much sense to keep the relationship going. But I don't think I will break up with her, because she allows me to be whoever I'll find myself to be, something I wouldn't dare being without knowing of her existence and acceptance. It's a scary place to be in, and I know that for her it's just as scary, but it seems to be the only way available for us now that we've discovered so much about our true selves together.

    Jester
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  8. #68



    Jester,

    As always, so much food for thought.

    I would really be interested to hear your thought process as you continue pondering the value of the relationship with your gf. How did you arrive to this place of realization that she is #1 for you? And why do you allow the #1 to get less time with you than your peripheral relationships? And what would you call the other one, what connection do you have with her? Fb? Do you have any responsibilities towards either, aside from emotional support to your #1, as it seems that is the focal point of the relationship? You are quite self-reliant, almost yo a fault, possibly, and I wonder how then do you feel the need/desire for emotional support?
    I am sorry if I am asking too much. Trying to understand you.

  9. #69



    You're not asking too much, you're actually helping me think this through. If I don't want to answer some specific points, I just won't, but so far I'm glad you're asking

    About her being nr. 1: I've been interacting with another woman when I first met my current gf but soon realized that this wasn't just a random fling but something with the potential to go very deep. Since I've had some positive past experiences with somewhat open relationships it was clear to me I wouldn't want to accept exclusivity as the price to be with my gf, but this was quite easy because she had been in open relationships before (with one ex, this guy found out he was bisexual, mostly gay, and she was still accepting of it. Quite a woman!) and was willing to accept it again on my part. She had kind of a hard time trusting that I would really allow her to explore her sexuality as well because past experience told her that the men usually talk bit and still get jealous afterwards, but we kind of eased into the practical part after discussing theoretically and from experience under which conditions this might hurt us the least. There is some part of us that hates the idea of the respective other sleeping around and not being there 100% for each other, but we've found it to be a rather insignificant part, mostly because we both had experiences in that area before we even met each other. My ex-gf was kind of torn from the emotional turmoil of thinking of me and her current bf as equals in a relationship, so I've learned from that experience that regardless of the actual emotions it's very important for me to have clarity for myself who I belong to if needs are conflicting. It's kind of like the condition we asked each other, to try to not sleep with someone else if we didn't feel 100% sure about each other at that time, and so far we did quite well.

    When I first met my now "secondary woman", it made me question things a lot again, because at the moment for example I a) see my secondary woman much more often than my actual gf, b) we have much more sex and c) even my friends see more of that woman than of my gf since my gf lives quite far from where I live. Following the usual criteria for how to define relationships, my gf must have kind of "lost the battle" to this other woman, but in fact they never really competed. With my secondary woman I share great sex and a close emotional connection as well, but at the core it's a somewhat conditional love still. She's jealous of my gf and she's jealous if I would go for other women I find attractive, which my actual gf is not. With my current gf we're kind of running through all the usual reasons why we think we are attracted to each other and we destabilize all of that. What stays in the end is the realization that it's probably truly unconditional love that's binding us together somehow. I have to admit that I'm having a hard time accepting this because it seems so counter-intuitive but it's not the sex that makes her my main gf but something much much deeper. This does go along with quite a few weird projections, for example since she's kind of taking in the role of a mother (giving unconditional love) sometimes issues I would have with my (dead) mother I'll project onto her which causes quite a bit of confusion. But it also allows room for quite interesting areas. Today for example I told her that at times I look at her and for a few moments I'm utterly disgusted by what I see. It's only for a few split-seconds, but it's there, and since we have created this room of unconditionality we can talk this stuff through now without having to break contact to protect our egos. Turns out I might be projecting part of what she herself feels in consequence of a weird childhood plus what my parents were dealing with sexually into situations that have nothing to do with the now, but since we created that space together now we can work through this shit instead of having to hide it and not let it show. There's no "alrigth so we're in a relationship which is why we'll have to feel or do X now". The connection is just there, and whatever comes up may bubble up. At times this is difficult to do, especially if other people like my parents or my sister (who don't know about my secondary woman) are trying to "help" by giving advice taken from their own experience. A few weeks ago I got really confused by what they were all saying and started questioning if this all made sense. But so far every time I was getting confused I got rewarded by a much deeper understanding of things later on.

    To the question how I'd call my relationship with my secondary woman: I don't care how to call it really. I really enjoy her body, I really enjoy spending time with her and I try to do so as much as I can, plus I'm really curious about how she experiences raising her child since I'm a teacher and we talk about this issue a lot too. She's got a great and really dark humor that I admire about her, and to be honest I'd wish her to stay in my life for as long as possible, however long she can sustain it on her side because it seems to be much more difficult for her to accept the originality of the situation. In community terms it would probably go as "MLTR" although I truly don't care much about definitions, the only thing I truly care about is if I feel love for somebody and how to order my life so I can express that love accordingly without creating too many problems in all that.

    I can be quite self-reliant, in fact I was from a very young age because I had to learn it to survive, but I really enjoy being with people and being part of a greater whole, so for me it's quite logical to search for others I can connect with. Plus it's kind of like a "meaning of life"-question that I believe the main point of being alive is to have a lasting effect on others, which one can do most easily in deep connection. Lately I've been wondering a lot about why I'm not that much motivated by doing things for my own benefit alone because it could be the effect of some traumatic experience stifling that core motivation, but so far that's just who I am. I don't care much about my own benefit, but I do enjoy it greatly to serve others or (even better) serve a greater whole.

    Jester
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  10. #70



    Jester,
    More questions: you state that you are more interested in serving others than being self-centered, but isn't the nature of your relationships such that proves the opposite? Wanting to have it all? I imagine you see it as "serving" multiple women, though? That it's all about them?
    Why do you not make more of an effort to see your gf more often?
    What is the #2 really jealous of?

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