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How I Got Good Fast At A Young Age (Attn - cadfe)
I received a very good question over PM by cadfe. I decided to answer him - but I figured out many others could find my response beneficial. Therefore I decided to post it in public.
Note: I moved this post from its own thread to the Required Reading thread because we are consolidating the stickies to clean up the top of this forum. I also pasted several very good replies Teeve made to people who commented on this post.
Hi Cadfe, this is a good question - even if it is a little vague. There is a lot to be said on these matters, but I decided to share what I thought was the most crucial. There are of course a lot of other other important elements that have been left out.
Originally Posted by cadfe
First of all. You don't have many reasons to be jealous. Because first of all, I am older than you, which means that I have been into this for 1 year more than you. Also I started at 15, you started at 16, which means that I started before you. This means that I have been into this for longer than you - in fact 2 years. Now you might say that two years isn't much, but it is, especially at our own age, 2 years of difference means a lot - because at our age we are more in development than any other ages. Like someone who is 49 doesn't differ much from someone who is 47. However, someone of age 13 is way less developed than someone who is 15. To explain this better - when you were 15, you changed a lot from when you were 13. This is why the 2 years of experience I have more than you makes such a huge difference. But don't worry about this, you are still very young and have a lot of time to catch up and get good. Some people are even virgin at 35 - well these are in a hurry - you are not.
Another thing you should be aware of is that I really wanted to learn this whole pick up thing when I started out. I didn't do like 80% of the guys here who wanted to have some advices on how to get that special woman. That was not my intention. I never asked such a questions. My intentions was to learn pick up and become really good. So my mindset and motivation with learning this whole thing was rather different. Instead of wasting time with one-itis and getting that "special girl", I focused on "how could I become super attractive". This way I approached this whole thing with the proper mindset. I was very motivated, I was genuinely motivated to get good. I was really interested in pick up and seduction itself, not simply interested in the quick fixes - i spent a lot of time trying to figure out how this works, why things are the way they are, and how I could handle different situations. Here is a toy example (which was actually a true one):
"There was a time where I got a lot of lmr"
As a result I asked myself a few questions:
1) what are the causes to lmr/what is lmr
2) why do I get lmr
3) What do I do that is not working - where is the problem with my game
4) What could I do to change this.
I reflected around it. And here was what I figured out
1) LMR is women holding back sex because - she has ASD or perceives you as a boyfriend potential
2) I get lmr because I don't show my true intentions early enough + I need to bypass ASD
3) Right now, I show too much high value (like you, I started with MM), plays too much the social game, she thinks I am cool, but she doesn't know my true intentions and therefore doesn't perceive me like a sexual guy. I also don't handle ASD.
4) Focus on ways on how I could handle ASD, and be more sexual - communicate that I am a sexual guy as early as possible.
If you do use a version of this model anywhere were you struggle, you will get good fast, because then you reflect over your game. You discover what you you do wrong and how you could do things better. This way you don't get confused with pu books - instead you will have a much more easier time creating your game. Of course, reading can help, give you some inspiration on how you could handle the different problems you encounter - but you don't let the books lead you... instead you lead yourself and the books becomes simply a source of inspiration - after a while I found books (and pick up products overall) pretty useless.
Also field experience matters. But you also need to figure out what REALLY happened and why it happened. A good way to do so is to write lay reports like I do. Typing up lay report (and field reports) helps you out a lot. Write down what happened, why it happened, why you did so-and-so, why this works/didn't work, and what you could do instead (if needed). This way you will have a better idea of where you are standing. A higher level of awareness will occur. It will force you to analyze the interactions, which you will learn a lot from, it will point out what your sticking points problems are and even helps you diagnose their causes. You can then reflect over possible solutions and see how they can be solved. You will also be detailed about the situation, the social dynamic, the girls you are with, you and your personality - this way people can give you better advices - maybe offer you possible solutions, or point out some sticking points that you can work with. You will also learn what you are good at, so that you can keep doing what works. Either way, the main purpose of all this is that you get a better view of yourself - and your results as you will be more in touch with your level of skills. It will then make it much easier for you to get better this way.
Also - stop taking advices too seriously. Field test it a few times, then discuss your results with the person who gave them to you. If it doesn't work, fuck it. Also don't listen to all those charlatans in the community- there are so many scammers. A tip from me is to take advice from either well known guys who you know got skills - Gunwitch, Mystery etc.... and avoid newer guys who are known due to good marketing. However, I would not become a follower of those who I believe give me good advices - that is dangerous. Always take advices with a grain of salt, reflect around them, field test them, reflect around the initial results, make some modifications to make it fit your personality, discuss the advice with others or those who gave it to you and then field test them again - if it really doesn't work out for you, do something else. I also highly recommend taking advices from non-commercial or not-that-commercial guys, because they will help you because they have a love for pick up and not for the money and have less intentions to scam you. It should also be noted that a lot of advice giving by commercial puas are fitted for the majority - men in their 30's who wants a girlfriend. But non-of these advices are fitted for a young teen who wants to bang around - in fact most puas are not talking about how you can get laid efficiently. That is only a few minority with a very special interest talks about. You will find many of them here, even if the majority here talks about polyamorous relationships (which I doubt is of much interest to you, as like me, you are rather young)
You need to define your own goals - mine was to have crazy sex with many women, and find your ways to reach them. My first initial goals was to fit in and become popular. This is a trap most men do, especially your age. Because you then become a follower, not a leader - your success will be defined by someone else, or a group. You need to create your own path. Create your own thing, be an outsider - but still be a winner. To put my case as an example - I wasn't popular in high school - nor was I "not-populare". But I know that if I wanted to get laid from being popular (I.E. having high social value), I would play in the usual league, strive more, and having my success defined by something external (other people and my place in the social hierarchy). Therefore I chose my own path, instead of being attractive from being attractive out of social value (being popular at school) - I decided to offer women something else. It was in my marketing class, after studying Maslow hierarchy of needs that I saw that sex was a physiological need - a very important need. Social value was a much lower social need - so why should I focus on this aspect? Instead I decided that I would be more attractive and gain more influence over women by selling that exact thing - "sex" - instead of - "social value". This took some time to master - but like anything else, practice is what makes you good. If you practice by going out, and having fun while doing it, while you diagnosis your own game, you will see results coming much faster, and as a result you will get more motivated and the whole thing will become more fun.
About practice? how much do you actually practice? If you were active since you were 16... why haven't I seen more field reports and posts from you? One of the keys to my success was my high level of ambitions. I went out as often as I could, and when I was 16, I went out 3 times a week. Are you going out 3 times a week practicing? If yes for for how long have you done that? If the answer is "no, I haven't gotten out much" - then you have only yourself to blame. Success doesn't come on a silver-plate. It requires failures, emotional investments, sometimes even confusions, depressions, but if you keep pushing you will get good - however as long as you practice the proper way. I can't tell you that much more on how to handle psychological problems that occurs during the learning phase because I have already written shitloads, but I know illuminatus has good advices on this exact thing. For a quick tip, I would say - don't be too hard on yourself, do baby steps and if you get too much harsh rejections (that will only cause pain in the end) stop doing what you are doing and try to do thing by taking small baby steps.
That is my advices. It takes time to get good. Also the learning curve in learning pick-up is not stable. Like you can go 5 months with a dry spell, and suddenly you get laid. If the curve was stable, it would have taken 5 new months to get laid again, but that is not the case - because once you make (figure out how..) things work, the next success could be right around the corner, in fact you might get laid again the next month. After that, you get an even better idea of how things work and what works for you, and it might take a week... before you get laid again. The curve is not balanced. So in case you are fresh when it comes to pick up, be aware that it takes time to figure out what works for you - and you might not even get laid at all during that time. But once you discover what works, with a few adjustments, the lays racks up.
Hope this helps.
~ ~ ~
Thanks for the kudos everybody
Originally Posted by cadfe
Well then, remain jealouse
Very true. But I will remain jealous because it is good motivation
I am very aware of this problem. And yes, it happened to me a lot and most of what is taught around here faces this problem. A guy gets laid and then mental masturbate about it and claim that the cause of his success was due to something different than what he tought. That is my main concern with guys who just recently had gotten success with women - they post tons of lr's, write lots of post - they do have success, but they fail to really understand the whole picture. Their explanation of how things works out is plainly wrong, it doesn't reality. For that instance, sciences experience similare problems.
Ok so you are saying it is very important to reflect on your experiences. Before I was thinking maybe it was ok not to reflect and just let the subconscious take care of it, like let the brain's own neural learning mechanisms toss out the bad and keep the good. But you think reflecting on it will give you better results? As someone who is interested in psychology, you must be aware of the various biases that can skew our recollections of events? For example, you attribute your success to XXX behavior, but maybe she was into you all along and XXX behavior was irrelevant? Or just the fact that our memories of events are very inaccurate?
However, you just need to accept this as a fact. You will analyze your field experience and try to learn from it. Let us say you like... cock/funny (which I don't), and you go out doing it and suddently you get laid. Then you are thinking that cocky funny works and that gave you laid. Alright... so now you believe cocky funny is what works for you - but in fact she fucked you because you were escalating and had a good eye contact and body lanaguage. Well here we have a problem.
So what you do is simply try to use cocky funny another night out, actually you do it a few times. Mybe around 20 times. If the results are not even near similare to your previous success story (where you in fact used C/F), then you can exclude CF from being the cause of your success. You need to challenge your thought, you reality. Many times I believe my success was due to something else than what really caused it. Like for example, this lay report from 2008, where I claim that social proof was THE thing... where in fact, when I think back, it was due to the fact that 1) she was really horny, 2) I was being alone and available, 3) I was being sexual.
So I faced this problem. But that is why you post lay reports... that is why you try to make a theory from your experiences - and then retest it until you figure out what really works for you. Like you go out and try X technique. You get success.... so in order to have more grounds to base this assumption on, you go out again... again and again and try the same thing each time. If you have a lot of success with it, well then it works. Also a good thing is to post your experiences and the techniques you use. I posted the sex talk guide (2009), originally with a selfish intention - to see if anyone else had success with it in order to find out wether I had good grounds to claim that my success was due to my use of sex talk - and it turned out right. This doesn't mean you can just post crap - you need to have field tested it, had success with it - consider this "trick" final finish to your mastery - the last proof you need that what you do actually works and that you know what the cause is.
Of course, after a while, you get experience and you can more at ease figure out things right away - why so-and-so works, what worked, why it worked without doing all this. But this of course is only having experience. Of course, this problem might still occur. There are no ways to completlyy solve this problem, and that you will never truly figure out what caused you success. But you can have an almost accurate belief about it - which is way better than knowing jackshit.
In fact, what you say is to just let the unconscious solve things out. Yes ok, but it does so automatically - so why not try to do this consciously. Like you have no control over you unconscious mind, so why do you want it to determine everything - your success with women? You will become like most RSD guys - unpredictible, one day you get laid, another you don't. If you like it that way, that is fine. But if you want consistency in your game - ie get laid regularly and being more in control of you results, you need to be aware and conscious about your own game.
Most guys doesn't like this path because it is hard work, and most guys simply wants a few one night stands a year and then have a girlfriend. But as I said, my goals are different. I want consistency, I want to know what I am doing, I want to be able to do almost the same things every night. Of course, you won't have the similare amount of success each night as there so many factors that plays in:
- Your unconscious mind
- Your mood
- The venue
- The mood of the girls
- Obstacles and noise
- many other things...
But then again, you still have way more control if you are conscious and aware of what you are doing. In fact most of my nights are rather similare in terms of success - and even the nights were I don't laid, I still doesn't consider them a complete failure - I had some good leads, I might have gotten a few make outs.... good number closes....
I never said it was easy. It takes time to learn this whole thing. It takes even more time to really figure out what you are doing, what you are doing right and doing wrong. You will fail many times, both in success with women or in theorizing what you are dojg - being aware of your own game. But hey, I never said things were easy!
Always a good idea!
Right, I'm trying to spend less time on this forum and more time out and about.
I am useless in social circles. Just recently, I have been able to pull things off in them, but the success is very limited. Just to point out something, social circles at our age and social circles for older people are two different world. This is why most of the social circle stuff you read from older guys is useless to you. In fact, social circles of people of our age are hierarchical as fuck. As a result, there are strict rules and you have to fit in - or you are out. Going in and being yourself requires HUGE balls. I only pulled this off during my last year of high school, and I had already been into this for more than 3 years. I was in fact getting huge success - maybe my best year. I had a 24 year old girlfriend that was hot as hot when I was 19 and the guys at school were like OMG. I was being unique, I didn'y give a shit. I could open up and be myself 100%, because guys knew that if they tried to put me down, I would tear them appart. Like a guy came up to me during my first days at school (during my last year in high school I changed school as a result of my section in my old school was gone). The guys came up and said something silly, with all his friend around, trying to get really close into me. I looked at him in the eyes "wanna suck my dick?" then tapped him on the head "it is okey buddy, I respect you". The guy since them, who was one of the populare guys at that school was cool to me since then. The guys said I was such a perve - yes I was well known for being a perve - but when during the break, girls asked me to share "one of my crazy sex stories" - well guys quickly discovered the real deal. But I wasn't the alpha male of the gorup, i still remained a bit of an outsider - guys were cool but I was never one of them - I always dressed the way I liked it - with fancy dressjackets and super slim jeans and super fancy haircute (ex was a hairdresser). But again this success was due to the fact that I joined a new social circle after reaching a high peak in my "pua" carrier.
When I first started I mostly tested this stuff out in social circles.
But yeah, I stay away from social circles. Maybe this is because I have figure out I didn't really needed them. I could go out alone and pick up a chick and have fun. I knew many people, just aquitances. But I like being independent, being alone and do my own thing. I can help people with the purpose of getting help back one day, and rather have a few friends that really like and enjoy being around. I probably only have 6 friends, and one of them is sparxx on this forum.
Sorry for all the random shit I wrote. My point was - if you want to be in a social circle at your age - you have to be the leader - which is a huge task. And here, approval from others and popularity plays in. You success will again be defined by others, and not only by yourself. That is not the way I like things to be. I want to be the cause of my own success.
So you need to play by the rules, instead of defining your own rules. If you want to do it like me and become more of an independent guy, then you are not really doing social circles anymore. If you want to do social circles, go ahead, but then you success will be defined by others, and if you aren't the leader - the success will be very limited (do I need to explain why?)
However, I do regret things - like no having kept some social circles on the side. The reason is because it gets you to parties and stuff - which allows you to meet other girls - and fuck them easily (parties have logistics pre-set usually). I shouldn't have closed off everybody I knew. Because in the end of the day... my week ends are like this - alone till 10 o clock, then dressing up for then heading out alone. Going out earlier to a party wouldn't hurt me. But yeah, I can build that thing back up, so I am not too worried.
Unfortunatly for us norwegians, in order to enter most clubs, you need to be 23 (!!). You yeah I faced similare problems to you. my solution? Find the few clubs that allowed 18+ but they usually sucked - even if I managed to pull it off great there. Now I will be careful giving advices here because I don't want to motivate anyone to act against the law, but what I did was getting a fake ID - a good one. But again, this can cause you big trouble if you get caught. Another thing that helped was to get to know some true clubbers, people who knew the nightlife and oculd get me in - even when it was illegal for me to there (in norway you have to be 20 in order to drink booze).
Unfortunately we Americans cannot be clubbing all the time like you Europeans, especially with our drinking age
. What if someone is not close to a lot of nightlife/does not have a ton of money to go out all the time, what would you recommend in that situation?
Maybe clubbing isn't an option for you yet - but that is ok. Clubgame is not the most efficient way to get laid. There are many options:
- Homeparites ( get to know some people who throw them off, without necesarily being part of their social circle)
- Online game (I believe this is for old people..with no time at their disposal - I never tried online game)
- Anywhere - join a gym, join a danceclass, yoga class - lots of women there!
Stop crying! These are good results! (well depends on how much work you did put into it). Man I have been there too - had many short success followed with some dry spell - that is okey, it happens. There are many reasons for that:
And relating to what you said about the learning curve. Last month I fucked two girls in the span of a week, and I thought "all right, all my work is starting to pay off", and then I went dry for a month.
- Your mood has changed (due to many factors)
- Your sex drive has lowered - when you fuck a chick, your level of testosterone increases, increasing your drive to try to fuck a new chick, when you don't, it dies off. Happens all the time
- Your confidence increases when you get laid - and makes you invisible in field the few days after. But then it dies off to.
Happens to all of us, just accept it and keep going out. You seem to get results - that all that matter. Because your real skills level is defined by you success and less by your losses. So If I went out tomorow and didn't get laid... and it happens again for the next 3 times I go out - do I suck? Not if I had a threesome two weeks ago. You see what I mean? Your biggest successes is what defines your skills. Top athletes doesn't win everyday, but they are top athletes because they won X championship once. Get it?
Haha! February used to be a very dry mounth for me too, but it starts to get a little better in april. May - june tends to be good months. Summer hollidays tends to be awesome - september and october are good too, november and december sucks big time. I don't know why, but it was like this for me too. Probably the weather. Most clubs ae dead during these bad periods - so my theory does make sense, but I can't really explain why - I could try to come up with some assumptions but that would be just lame and not truly useful.
My goal was 2 new girls a month but then February was completely dry for me. It's very frustrating to me, to have success in fits and bursts. I kept telling myself "Ok I knew how to do this before, why can't I do it now?". Where along the learning curve would you say I am?
However, when you manage to be conscious and aware of your own game, you are more likely to pull off your "best game" when ever you want. In fact, these days, I face less these problems, because I less dependent of "state" and "being in the right mood" or "the right place at the right time" - it happens because "I know what I am doing".
I used to do some daygame at your age. I found it boring as I was very high energy back then. But I did get good results from it. It is absolutly a great of way of meeting hot and cool women (less "crazy" than clubgirl - you meet less fucked up women, less dramatic). It is true that it requires more balls to open up chicks during the day time, but it is actually WAY easier to open during daytime. It is also way easier to keep her attention in daygame. Also in clubs, you might be able to conversate with women, but it usually means jack shit to her - it doesn't mean she is interested. In order to make her interested, the requirements in clubs are WAY higher - and requires a game that is way more bold (and maybe requires even more balls). In daygame, if a chick talks to you and keeps the conversation going, it is most of the time on - whereas in clubs, it usally isn't (-"sorry, we are leaving now" or "We gotta go to the bathroom"). Also in daygame you can take you time, you will be way less stressed, face much less obstacles (- "my friend just got too drunk, I gotta go" or "Oh shit... I lost my wallet..."), requires less hard work from you - as most men hit on women in nightclubs, women higher their standards and lowers their attention span...
A few more questions:
Do you ever do daygame cold approach? I can talk to girls at night no problem, but going up to a random girl during the day and chatting her up gives me anxiety while night game does not. I guess maybe because its more socially acceptable to talk to random girls at night? Also I feel like daygame cold approach is inefficient, is it not?
Daygame is easier, but requires more balls when it comes to approaching her. The biggest difficulty in daygame is to get the conversation going without her leaving - you need to "hook" them in. there are lots on information on that instance and the techniques are not hard to pull off.
Daygame needs to be done properly, if not it is not efficient. In clubgame, you can get some "help" from the environment, her mood, etc... but in daygame - it all lies in your own hands (at least to certain extent).
I would say that it takes more time to be good at clubbgaming. Still many fresh puas seems to only have (minimal...) success in clubs because they can rely on external factors - often known as luck. Pulling with consistency in nightgame is WAY harder then in daygame - because you can't get lucky everynight. In daygame, you face much less "luck" than in nightgame, but it is easier to pull off - and then I mean with pullings chicks regularly.
Read daygame posts, read daygame stuff to get an idea of how things works out as a start - just to have something to being with, then go out and get experience and work from that (reflect over your experience).
It is very hard to to write a fashion guide without being super wague. I will try to write something up when I have time (almost never) - but sadly there are topics I am more interested in covering. I won't post pics for privacy reasons.
I know that you have really great style. Would you mind making a post talking about how you dress or maybe post a few pictures of your outfits?
Sorry for not being able to answer this question.
GET A GAYRIEND!
There you go
No problem. It is hard for me to really put words on many on those things, and I feel I have forgot to add many important aspects. Sorry for that.
Thanks again for the awesome response.
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Another huge problem with playing by the rules is that everybody else does it - which makes it much harder to benefit from it as the requirements becomes way higher. Like for example. if I wanted to rely on social value, I would have to work much harder to succeed - because most men focus on the same thing and therefore you need to be the best out of many. This is what old MM tried to do - be the best among the rest - have high social value.
Originally Posted by pokerodds
But it still requires hard work. Consider I open up a store that sells X product. Think now that 100 other stores in my city sell similar products. It would then be very hard for me to sell anything - at least much harder than if I was selling something completely different that the other 100 stores. This is what I decided to do.
~ ~ ~
Originally Posted by Isidia
How is this relevant to this thread?
I have nothing else to ask but do a research on nutrition, look for posts from ijjjji and Manneken-Pis for more information on that. Also research for substances such as serotonin, testosterone, dopamine and stuff to understand what makes your body produce them. I work out regularly now so I feel more horny than before.
On the other hand - here is what I do. I do some sports which I like: MMA, Muay Thai, submission wrestling.... and by this I get a little exercise.
And I need normal food - I don't eat too much sugar, I use less butter as possible, I eat some meat and some vegetable. I take omega 3 pills + multivitamins - and this seems completely okey for me. Doesn't need special diets and shit. What is what is the point of that? Getting ripped doesn't mean jack shit. If you are fat... and lose a lot of fat... the results will skyrock. But if you are "normal" looking, getting ripped won't do much - just lots of hard work. In fact having too much muscles makes you look too "masculine" and can fuck things up for you. The "big muscle" guys, from my experience does rarely gets laid. Why all the hard work? Cut the fat (like butter and shit), eat vegetables, cut the sugar, cut some carbs (still some carbs can be ok), eat meat, cut drinking a little and you will alright! Damn this is not rocket science.
Fact is, I am probably way more healthy than guys on weird diets.
I have sleeping problems: chronic insomniacs. I get strong pills for sleeping. I stopped taking them. So I usually get to bed at 4 o clock and wake up at 12. This how I work. But I am a special case. For most people, it is advices to not to go clubs more than twice a week - it can fuck you up. going out the week days is even more dangerous (unless you have time off/ on holiday).
I am not sure about going out all nights if you are not into nightclub and all, I have reduced my time there and sleep better, thus feel better. It depends on how your body works but I used to go out almost 4 days/week and missed a lot of classes last year. So I want to fix this.
I also can't have a good night out when I am worried about the next day... or if I have too much work to do. When out in club, I want to fully release myself. That is why I never go out when I have too much schoolwork to do or school the next days.
I talked with my doctor about it! That is a good thing to do. The problem with personal trainer is that they don't give a shit about what is healthy, they usually just give you the diet that makes you look good as fast as possible. A good example of this is "low-carbo diets" - which is actually quiet dangerous - because once you start eating carbs again, you get fat in no time!
Be careful with scientific articles, don't trust everything you read. Consult them with people who have more knowledge than you on nutrition.
Beside meditation - I also recommend Thai Chi (is it spelled that way?) or yoga.
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Eat healthy - but don't become a maniac. I think mediation is good. But beside doing weightlifting, do some martial arts - sanshou, muay thai, kickboxing, bbj, judo, mma. Most guys who have done martial arts are becoming very confident, comfortable with themself, comfortable around others, less affraid, and more open and comfortable about physical contact with other. It also increases your testosterone level which is a good thing. It is a lot of fun too and it will teach you how can defend yourself.
Originally Posted by Isidia
BTW... forget about all this inner game crap - most of it is not useful at all and it just plain mental masturbation. Some is good, such as hyptnoticas inner game material. Mark manson does also have a really good book for beginners that I think is really good.
Innergame courses will not cure your problems. I don't have any true answers for this issue. But I believe this video will help:
In this video, David Bercelli explains some theories around trauma and then show some exercices that you can do at home, that hopefully would remove some trauma, and make you feel more relaxed and confident. Of course, if you are a bad case, this isn't a replacement for therapy, but a good add-on. If you aren't a therapy case, but simply a guy with some traumatic experiences (like the majority of people), then these exercices will do you some good. Do them once a week over a mounth and let us know how you feel.
Last edited by Silvertree; 03-15-2014 at 09:43 PM.
Teevster (TVA_Oslo) AKA. Alek Rolstad
- Liminal spaces and bubbles
- Sexual value Elicitation
- Sexual framing: Contrasting